Tulpa.info - metaphysics

Then you could have conviction that there is a single truth about the sun and earth motion, whether or not you know it, and have what you provisionally act as though it were true, geocentricity, without attachment to that belief?

yes

But you said there wasn't a single truth D: ps "absolute correctness" you said (edited)

There isn't

10:41 PM

These are separate things: 1. There is an objective truth 2. I believe the Sun goes around the Earth 3. I am able to let go of/reshape my beliefs based on new evidence

10:41 PM

Therefore

10:42 PM

If you were presented evidence that the Earth goes around the sun, you cna change your belief without violating 1 or 3

Is that better than having it as a question instead of a belief?

10:43 PM

I mean mystically, if the intellectual result is the same.

Having it as a belief, and the conviction that goes with that, has a much larger impact on your paradigm/worldview than simply holding it indefinitely as a question

10:43 PM

Lack of conviction is lack of development of your worldview

10:44 PM

no matter how much you learn

Bah humbug, Rudolf Steiner said that that attitude was harmful to the throat chakra's form ):

did he ever say why

Rome

I say this same thing about this being my final lifetime. If, evidence shows, I have past lives that are hidden through amnesia due to the veil of forgetfulness, then by transitive property this MUST be my final life if I am experiencing every moment right now as it is without any spiritual amnesia mumbo jumbo. The only absolute is my experience RIGHT NOW, ya know?

"By transitive property" = You're inferring. Even if there is no spiritual amnesia mumbo jumbo right now, there is no way for you to KNOW there will be no subsequent lifetimes

If you arent going to listen to my genuine advice, I won't engage you any further

Rome he gave a bit of elaboration on how or why, not in huge detail Kamiko I'm taking it on as a perspective but I don't know what to do now. (edited)

Besides, how do you even know that there is no spiritual amnesia mumbo jumbo to begin with?

Unfastened Belts

Besides, how do you even know that there is no spiritual amnesia mumbo jumbo to begin with?

Because I'm here in the now. Thats how I KNOW.

I could do the lack of belief thing and hold both your advice and the belief-lack one as viable, which would be doing one, or I could hold one of them with conviction and be doing the other, I don't know what to do D:

Rome

Because I'm here in the now. Thats how I KNOW.

You're here in the now, and that's ALL you can know

anon

I could do the lack of belief thing and hold both your advice and the belief-lack one as viable, which would be doing one, or I could hold one of them with conviction and be doing the other, I don't know what to do D:

Make a choice. That's what you do. Commit to something. That's my advice

Unfastened Belts

You're here in the now, and that's ALL you can know

not necessarily. lets not get too absolute now

I could try compromising by choosing things I am satisfactorily convinced are likely to be true and believe them with conviction s: While still being easily able to change those beliefs. (edited)

That's literally what my advice is. just invest yourself in something bc you cant prove anything to be absolute and trying will get you nowere

if you want knowledge I think you have to find it

not necessarily. lets not get too absolute now

That's the whole point! ;P You can never be absolute about anything, such as previous and subsequent lifetimes. The only thing you can be absolute about is that you're here now

10:49 PM

Even if you could know that this is your final lifetime, what good does that knowledge do you?

Unfastened Belts

Even if you could know that this is your final lifetime, what good does that knowledge do you?

A lot hahahaha

I'm probably late here but you cant make knowledge out of nothing, so you should think about how you can learn more stuff on your own instead of trying to make someone do it for you.

Well great, then just continue on that assumption ;P

Hmm all right, can it be mundane things that I try to believe in (I presumably already have a lot of beliefs), without believing in anything like OBE's and chi and an afterlife? My belief quote being filled by mundane things?

anon

Hmm all right, can it be mundane things that I try to believe in (I presumably already have a lot of beliefs), without believing in anything like OBE's and chi and an afterlife? My belief quote being filled by mundane things?

There's no quota, but yeah, belief with conviction in anything at all will hep you grow further than belief in conviction with nothing

Unfastened Belts

Well great, then just continue on that assumption ;P

Its not an assumption. This is the type of thing only I can know. We can get into logistics all day long but a lot of it boils down to intuition.

umm

Intuition isn't the same as knowledge, though?

All right then even though I cannot prove you are who you say you are, I may start following your advice by believing for the same of believing, while also staying in the question to avoid false belief. (edited)

I dont believe in weird stuff like that but I still believe in stuff!

(Someone on a psionics server advised me not to forget my own opinions when taking in the opinions of others)

How would you even know that there ARE any lifetimes beside the HereNow?

Logistics plus evidence plus empirical experiences of my own plus thousands of others = evidence = knowledge.

anon

All right then even though I cannot prove you are who you say you are, I may start following your advice by believing for the same of believing, while also staying in the question to avoid false belief. (edited)

exactly. you can question your beliefs at any time you like, but having beliefs still benefits you even if its something everyone believes like "wood catches fire" or something occult like "its possible to summon demons"

10:54 PM

You can always question and change your beliefs, but lacking them entirely is limiting

Rome

Logistics plus evidence plus empirical experiences of my own plus thousands of others = evidence = knowledge.

Agreed with everything except the last "= knowledge" part

thats your opinion but it fits in the actual definition of knowledge

Hmm all right, maybe I can afford to take a few more risks by selectively having certain beliefs at times like one in demon summoning. I've already got plenty of beliefs presumably.

anon

Hmm all right, maybe I can afford to take a few more risks by selectively having certain beliefs at times like one in demon summoning. I've already got plenty of beliefs presumably.

It's a start. See where letting yourself have conviction leads you for awhile

o: Is the act of changing belief in itself detrimental at all to anything, like to the throat lotus flower (in Hinduism and things)? (edited)

anon

o: Is the act of changing belief in itself detrimental at all to anything, like to the throat lotus flower (in Hinduism and things)? (edited)

not according to any occult text I know of

o:

would you say a racist changing his beliefs to a more loving belief to be detrimental?

if anything most texts see it as a sign of growth to change beliefs

1

Supposedly in Theosophy they say it is, though I could have misread its ambiguity in an English translation (edited)

the problem is that people name facts things that might not be facts, fact is reserved for things that are proven without doubt and objectively true, but it's hard to do that and probably common folks are not in a place to call anything a fact if they can't run the experiments that prove things to be true without any doubt themselves

refusing to change and grow your beliefs is just as stagnating as not having them at all

Rome

thats your opinion but it fits in the actual definition of knowledge

It's the definition of inference. IF I don't have spiritual amnesia, THEN there must be no further lifetimes

I don't mean like that, I mean like if you switched back and forth between believing two things 100 times in the space of a day, supposedly being detreimental with each switch or something like that, though I could have misunderstood some ambiguity. (edited)

anon

I don't mean like that, I mean like if you switched back and forth between believing two things 100 times in the space of a day, supposedly being detreimental with each switch or something like that, though I could have misunderstood some ambiguity. (edited)

Struggling to decide which belief you want to place conviction in is a sign of growth and of itself, causes growth

11:01 PM

regardless of which you settle on you gain new perspective on yourself and your experiences

not being able to change your believes when proven to be wrong is just being stubborn

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

not being able to change your believes when proven to be wrong is just being stubborn

or scared, or both

Ok so you're not saying that every time you staple a different opinion to the board, the board gets two more holes in it, harming its form, regardless of the specifics of the opinions involved which is another matter.

but doubting yourself and change your believes all the time is also unhealthy, since you become quite vulnerable to wrong influence - i know noone here suggested it, just felt it had to be mentioned, i think questioning is still very healthy, but you do need to be open to the possibility of being wrong

anon

Ok so you're not saying that every time you staple a different opinion to the board, the board gets two more holes in it, harming its form, regardless of the specifics of the opinions involved which is another matter.

exactly. My point is the board is supposed to have holes in it. That means you're actually using it

KiTkAT( •̀ .̫ •́ )✧/jk

but doubting yourself and change your believes all the time is also unhealthy, since you become quite vulnerable to wrong influence - i know noone here suggested it, just felt it had to be mentioned, i think questioning is still very healthy, but you do need to be open to the possibility of being wrong

hence my point about conviction

Holes in the board was a metaphor for harming a lotus flower which supposedly happens according to one guy.

anon

Holes in the board was a metaphor for harming a lotus flower which supposedly happens according to one guy.

and lotus flowers are another metaphor for the heart and mind

o:

you cant preserve the flower forever, there'sno point in a pin board if you pin nothing to it, etc

The board was a limited metaphor possibly ._. (edited)

Unfastened Belts

It's the definition of inference. IF I don't have spiritual amnesia, THEN there must be no further lifetimes

By that definition then, science is merely just inferring everything and that there is no theoretical knowledge on anything. I wish you'd take the time to ask what evidence I have to back it up instead of assuming I'm just inferring everything off of speculation.

Actually are you aware of any or many occult traditions where they try to avoid belief and it goes well?

mr anon probably didn't meet marissa yet

11:09 PM

oops i just realised i called her framework a cult

11:09 PM

sorry lol!

By that definition then, science is merely just inferring everything and that there is no theoretical knowledge on anything.

Yes, that's what I'm trying to point out.

I wish you'd take the time to ask what evidence I have to back it up instead of assuming I'm just inferring everything off of speculation.

I didn't say your inference was based on speculation, and I would indeed be curious to hear your evidence

11:09 PM

xDD Kitty

11:09 PM

It's the opposite of a cult! "Don't believe anything"

I think theres a difference between not believing anything and lightly believing in things and not being married to one's beliefs.

anon

Actually are you aware of any or many occult traditions where they try to avoid belief and it goes well?

I have not. Buddhism attempts to rid the self of attachment which would include beliefs, but is of itself a system of belief

Of course, Rome

Buddhism is the closest I know of though

o:

but is of itself a system of belief

It's not meant to be, but the human mind is almost completely incapable of not turning new information into beliefs

I noticed something and it has the potential to make me feel silly and I'm not telling you what it is.

Semantics is my least favorite topic to get into, and its such an inevitable topic in these realms.

Rome

I think theres a difference between not believing anything and lightly believing in things and not being married to one's beliefs.

I am heavily married to my beliefs, but I also happen to be married to the idea of divorce xD Difficult, but if a belief doesnt serve me well I need to work on ridding myself of it

anon

I noticed something and it has the potential to make me feel silly and I'm not telling you what it is.

thats ok

Semantics is my least favorite topic to get into, and its such an inevitable topic in these realms.

It's in the nature of the subject. We're talking about beliefs and concepts, so it helps to be clear on what that refers to

Thats why a lot of people, particularly buddhists, don't attach themselves to their beliefs for just that. its easier to rid oneself of a belief if you hardly believe in it in the first place. BUT. That doesn't mean you hardly believe in anything in the first place

Ok I just went to lie on the floor I'm back now. (edited)

anon

Ok I just went to lie on the floor I'm back now. (edited)

what a whole fuckin mood tbh

11:13 PM

sometimes you just gotta lie on the floor for awhile

Actually in Kabballah there is faith in one of the trees.

11:14 PM

Is your occult tradition separate from Kaballah? That reminded me of this. Not to say everything with faith is kabballah. (edited)

I think theres a difference between not believing anything and lightly believing in things and not being married to one's beliefs.

I'm not saying the latter is inherently unhealthy, but sometimes the former has to occur first if the "spiritual amnesia mumbo jumbo" is to be removed from the experience

anon

Is your occult tradition separate from Kaballah? That reminded me of this. Not to say everything with faith is kabballah. (edited)

Mine is, I'm actually very ignorant on Kaballah so any similarities are co-incidence/ignorance on my part

(Sorry if my quoting that terms sounds sarcastic, I actually really like it lol) (edited)

o:

FWIW, my "spiritual teacher" does state that he does not believe in anything. He says "if an apple manifested out of nowhere and starting floating through the room, I would be surprised, but I wouldn't be that surprised"